Dr. Kim Bullock

Welcome back to Psychiatry XR, where we aim to inspire worldwide conversations around the use of extended reality in psychiatric care. I'm your host for this episode, Kim Bullock, and I'm joined by my co-host, Jessica Hagen. Hi, Jessica.

Jessica Hagen

Hello!

Dr. Kim Bullock

It’s really exciting. For today's episode, we are joined by a very special guest, Jonah Coleman Bryan. Jonah recently graduated with a degree in Clinical Informatics Management from Stanford Medicine this month, where he learned to navigate the complex, multi-stakeholder landscape of healthcare technology, which is not an easy feat, while applying some previous experience in development and clinical implementation. 

He's a really fascinating person. He had a previous product leadership role at a company called KeyWise AI, and he says that this really taught him firsthand how digital mental health solutions must address really diverse needs of multiple players, including patients, providers and payers, and investors. And he really learned from this how to redesign product user experiences, balancing clinical efficacy, technical feasibility, market positioning and leading to some really significant increases in user engagement and media coverage. 

So, you have to have so many talents to be able to do this, and so much expertise in multiple areas. And Jonah's understanding of healthcare's interconnected ecosystem has also grown through his research with Stanford professor, Dr. Dennis Wall, in Stanford's Biomedical Data Science department, where he worked on a measurement-based care platform designed to continuously monitor cravings for patients recovering from alcohol use disorder using Meta’s Smart Glasses platform, which I believe he's still working on now too. 

So, we are thrilled also to announce that Jonah has recently joined the Psychiatry XR team as a co-host and intern, and so you should be seeing and hearing a lot more from him in the coming episodes. So, we really welcome you, Jonah, and are so thrilled to have you here.

Jonah Bryan

Thank you so much, Dr Bullock and thank you, Jessica. It is such an honor to have been part of this team and to get to know you all for the past few months, and to officially join as a co-host, and to have been working as an intern. So, I'm so excited to be here.

Dr. Kim Bullock

Yeah, we're excited to have you here.

Dr. Kim Bullock

Yeah, very much. So well, maybe we could just start with your origin story. What led you to being interested in immersive technology and behavioral health? I know you sought me out a few years ago, and what just got you here?

Jonah Bryan

I transferred to the University of California, San Diego in 2020, from Tennessee. I went to a smaller school in Tennessee. I wasn't enjoying what I was really studying. And I found Cognitive Science at UCSD. 

I found a lab called the mental health and design lab with a professor named Dr. Elizabeth Eikey, she took me under her wing, and essentially, I went to her, and I was like, I'm really interested in how we can leverage smartphone data and this other novel sensor data to unlock new insights in mental health. And I started diving into the DSM and all of these, like the diagnostic criteria for mental health disorders. 

And I was like, how can we make this more objective and get closer to precision medicine? That whole thesis has really driven me over the past five years–I got into this field of digital phenotyping while I was at UCSD, I met Dr. Raeanne Moore, who is also at UCSD. She's a cognitive psychologist, and through her, I got involved in her work with KeyWise AI, where they were doing digital phenotyping with smartphone based keystroke data, so essentially turning a smartphone keyboard into a novel sensor that unlocked this passive data that could be used to measure how a bipolar patient was actually going in and out of manic and depressive episodes over time, simply based on just how they were interacting with their keyboard. 

So that was my true segue into this field, and ever since then, I've just continued to dive deeper into how we can come up with new insights and unlock novel solutions with these really novel sensors and wearable applications that consumers use in their everyday lives. And as you mentioned, Kim, that's how I got introduced to you. 

So, in the fall at Stanford, I was looking into this community. I was like, who's doing novel work here at Stanford, and I found Dr. Kim Bullock and the Virtual Reality and Immersive Technology clinic. And I was like, she is fascinating. I really need to know her. And that's when we reached out and I got connected to you. And was just fascinated with all the work that you've done with virtual reality headsets, extended reality, augmented reality, and I've just, I’ve continued to immerse myself in this space, no pun intended, over the past six months. So yeah, continuing to work in immersive technology and extended reality, and now on the smart glasses’ platform with Meta.

Dr. Kim Bullock

So, what is it about immersive technology that really drives you, as compared to wearables, these consumer wearables that you also sounded passionate about?

Jonah Bryan

I think for me; it's understanding through my own patient journey and from the people around me seeing how difficult it is to address subjective symptoms in real time and to understand what is going on in your subconscious in a conscious like are you consciously aware of what is actually happening in real time? And for virtual reality to take you out of your real-world context, put you into a new environment where you can simulate different experiences. 

Kim, I looked into the cue exposure therapy work that you did with virtual reality, and for me, that sparked an interest. For me, because I'm interested in the addiction medicine space and behavioral health, and I was like, this would be amazing for people in recovery, if they could actually be desensitized to some of the major cues and triggers that they have in their real world environment, they can train themselves in virtual reality to then go into the real world and be less susceptible to cravings over time. So that work, to me, was just fascinating, and diving into that has been really cool.

Dr. Kim Bullock

Yeah, and you're really got me understanding more how wearables are merging with immersive technology and can be considered and maybe classified as immersive technology now that they're not like a separate thing. I was always thinking of wearables as something you just wear on your arm and get data and track biomarkers, but maybe you could speak to why, kind of, wearables now are part of immersive technology.

Jonah Bryan

Yeah, you have to distinguish between wearables like the Apple Watch, the Oura ring and the WHOOP and smart glasses. So, for example, Snapchat has a glasses platform called spectacles that are fully augmented reality. Headset untethered. They're not wired to anything, operate completely on their own, and that is augmented reality. So that, I would say, is extended reality and goes along the lines of immersive technology. 

Smart glasses, by themselves, do not put the user or the patient or the client into a new environment. So, I don't know how I would classify those smart glasses, like the meta commercial Ray Ban glasses, for example, as immersive technology. But I do believe, over the next coming years, as augmented reality sort of gets adopted into everyday consumer life, we will enter this world where smart glasses are considered immersive technology and can be used outside of the clinic.

Dr. Kim Bullock

Yeah, well, it is adding another layer of reality on there, or even spatial technology or spatial computing, because aren't you also seeing an interface often on the glasses?

Jonah Bryan

That's right.

Jessica Hagen

Right.

Dr. Kim Bullock

So, I would think that also kind of could be under that umbrella of XR as well.

Jonah Bryan

Absolutely. Apple Vision Pro sort of unlocked this entire paradigm shift in spatial computing. So, it's a virtual reality headset. You probably wouldn't catch yourself wearing that downtown or walking around the streets. It is a bit bulky, and the form factor is not quite there yet, but they've unlocked an entire new modality of user interaction design, where they've merged virtual reality and augmented reality, where you can actually see the environment in front of you in the real world in front of you, and you can interact with different things using your fingers and actually interacting with this virtual environment overlaid on the real world, and that's the space that I think I'm really excited about, also because I think about behavioral health and addiction medicine and people that are in recovery. 

Imagine if somebody is in recovery and walking down the street and without this extended reality platform, like glasses, augmented reality glasses platform, they may not realize the immediate risk that they have in terms of their cravings to use, say, it's alcohol. 

Now, imagine that they have a glasses platform, like an augmented reality Meta RayBan type glasses where they're allowed to, enabled to visualize their risk in real time, overlaid in their environment, real time environment in front of them. Those are types of applications that really excite me and how these glasses could be repurposed to do really incredible things in behavioral health.

Dr. Kim Bullock

And that's kind of like spatial computing, because you've got an interface right in front of you.

Jessica Hagen

Absolutely.

Jessica Hagen

I was gonna say, so like, if you're really thinking about immersive technology. Immersive technologies are really things that create simulated experiences, right? So, like, immersive technology could be present as long as you're interacting with something, a digital object, through the glasses or some and then what you were describing, Jonah is really, like mixed reality, right? So, yeah. 

So, a lot of listeners, I think it's valuable to understand. You know, extended reality is kind of this all-encompassing term for virtual reality, augmented reality, and mixed reality. So mixed reality, like you said, Jonah, is exactly what you're talking about, where you can actually interact with digital objects, right? And then augmented reality is more like these digital objects exist in this realm, but you can’t, you know, move them around and mess with them much. And then virtual reality, obviously, is when you're completely immersed in a different world, and you don't see your world in front of you at all. 

So, I do think that what you were talking about is this mixed reality kind of idea of being able to use that for people, to actually immerse themselves in it. But then also, you know, be able to kind of maneuver the objects around. I think that would be really, really valuable. I think that's incredible, that that's something that you're exploring for addiction, too.

Jonah Bryan

Thank you. It takes me back to my initial purpose. And Kim, we've talked about this in the past. Is homework, is I believe, in your words, the single biggest predictor of success in terms of treatment outcomes.

Dr. Kim Bullock

Yeah, in most CBT studies, yeah.

Jonah Bryan

And for me, having been in therapy and spoken to people in therapy before, it's very easy when you're in a therapeutic environment to be interacting with your provider and actually doing that work in real time, but when you step out of the clinic, it's cognitively demanding, it's difficult to do the work. It doesn't feel like there's a clear return on your investment in the work. And that's really what's driven me into this space, is how can we make it easier for patients and clients to interact with these technologies and make it more engaging to actually do this homework, so we can improve outcomes over time? And I really think that these mixed reality platforms and different applications can bridge the gap there in between provider visits, and that's what's been really exciting to me.

Dr. Kim Bullock

Yeah, yeah, great. And could you tell us what's on the horizon for Google and Meta and Apple as far as these immersive eyeglass wearables?

Jonah Bryan

I would love to, I would love to. So, Snapchat recently announced that they are building their next generation of smart glasses that will be fully augmented reality, and they will have a wearable form factor like the Meta RayBan glasses. Snapchat has invested billions of dollars into this industry over the past five, six, even more years, Meta as well with reality labs. 

So, Meta currently is probably the market leader in the space. They have their Meta RayBan glasses platform, which essentially have outward facing cameras. They have an audio function, and you can capture pictures and videos. And they're more for socializing than they are for anything. But the form factor is great. They look like any other glasses that you might wear. They also just did a partnership with Oakley, getting into more of the athletic space, just a different design, a different form factor for different types of people that want to wear these glasses. Snapchat is getting in.

Google recently announced at one of their big conferences that they're getting into the augmented reality space and the smart glasses space. 

Apple is difficult to pin down, and I don't know exactly what they're doing in the space, but I also know that Sam Altman recently acquired Johnny Ives design studio, Io, don't exactly know what they're doing there, but if I had to bet it is going to be something that has to do with mixed reality, I've speculated it could be smart glasses. It could be a different type of wearable that is passively collecting audio and visual data over time, like a pendant. Not exactly sure what that's going to look like in the future, but I know that Meta RayBan is the number one selling glasses product in all of Ray Ban, most of Ray Ban, retail stores in Europe. So, it's really taken off over there, and the market is really catching on here in America. 

Definitely new, definitely early. But what I see as a gap in the space is a need for a medical device. I think the iPhone had a moment in time that was missed by the psychiatric community and mental health providers, where this emerging technology could have been reconfigured to completely change the mental health industry. And I believe that we're in a similar inflection point for behavioral health now with emerging smart glasses technology, where there's a need for smart glasses that has a medical device, and so that's what I've been working on over the past year and what I really want to work on for the next five years.

Jessica Hagen

Well, I think it's very funny that you mentioned that, because I just recently did this Emerging Technology Series for MobiHealthNews and HIMSS TV, and I interviewed Nissan Elimelech, who was the founder of Augmedics, right? And Augmedics was one of the original companies that developed augmented reality surgical navigation technology, right? 

So when I was talking to Nissan, he had mentioned that he is partnering with another big firm, undisclosed as of yet who that is, but they are creating glasses where you will actually be able to develop any type of healthcare application on these medically focused glasses, augmented reality glasses, and it's specifically for developers to be able to create any type of experience that they want. 

And it's almost like, you know how you have, like the Apple store, where you could make an application, then have it sold in the App Store? Well, it's going to be something similar to that for developers to be able to make applications for medical use, which is fascinating, but it's not launched. He just announced that they're doing this, and this is something that's going to come out within the next couple of years. So, I think it's fascinating. Keep an eye on that, everybody. I'm very curious to see what happens with Nissan's technology.

Dr. Kim Bullock

Definitely. Yeah, and I think it speaks to how complex and difficult this field is. And yeah, you give me hope that, you know, we'll be able to cross those bridges with people like you that understand all aspects of it. Are you able to tell us a little bit about the work you did with Dr. Wall in a pupillary dilation study. I think that's a great example of, you know, potential, but also challenges and obstacles along the way.

Jonah Bryan

Absolutely. So, what continuous glucose monitors have done for endocrinology, type 1 and type 2 diabetes patients, my dream and my vision for behavioral health and addiction medicine is for a device like this for a device like this to exist for patients in recovery and even as a diagnostic tool to inform decision making for providers as the child progresses, even early on, when they just start to interact with substances, to collect this data over time, and so we can actually intervene earlier and get people in the system earlier if they need to be in the system earlier. This work with Dr. Wall is inspired by that mission. The pupil dilation work is very early. 

The way that I think about it is there are motion sensors that are embedded in form factors like the Oura ring and the whoop that have unlocked activity classification and new insights in consumer behavioral health, not necessarily clinical behavioral health, but for everyday consumers and such things as sleep and stress scores and recovery scores, scores like that that were unlocked by really the aesthetic of what it means to like wear a WHOOP in an Oura Ring, like it became cool to do so, and it kind of became mainstream. There are other sensors, like PPG, sensors that are embedded in Oura rings that are novel ways of coming up with these new biomarkers for consumers. We're at a very early inflection point, but I think what I've learned over the past year is that we need to move beyond these motion sensors and other modalities of collecting time series data essentially, which is just motion classification data that you plot on an X- or  Y-axis to actually moving towards contextual artificial intelligence. 

So, looking at the real-world environment from the egocentric perspective, from the perspective of the person wearing the glasses, another thing to note is that these smart glasses that are currently on the market do not have eye tracking cameras embedded on those glasses frames. 

So, these companies are more focused on contextual AI, looking at the environment outwardly, but what we want to look at is how the eyes are actually responding to the outside world and the outside environment. This work is very early. Kim, I'm so curious to get your viewpoint on this work and with these hypotheses that we have about smart glasses and how we can actually look at pupillary dilation bias over time and how the pupil is responding to cues and triggers in a person's environment. How would we validate that work with patients, and what would be your recommendations to going to market with a product like that?

Dr. Kim Bullock

Yeah, I think, Jonah, you're getting to the heart of really, some of the challenges and problems that we have to solve to actually get XR technology, you know, to the bedside and creating innovation that can actually help patients. And I think your project on creating a business around this biomarker of pupillary dilation that could potentially be measured in an XR device, and using that as a proxy for attentional bias and incentive salience that actually could predict those that are at risk for relapses is a great idea, but I think what you're facing is okay, so you've got one small pilot study that hasn't been validated, and now you have to risk creating this company that's built around the single study, and that might not pan out when you do larger studies, or you scale it, and who's responsible for what are you going to take that risk? Is academia going to take that risk? Does academia and industry come together to take that risk together? 

So, I think this is a perfect example of this. And then the other thing, when I kind of took a deep dive into the research on this topic, I'm not an expert by any means, but I saw that the nicotine use disorder literature does have some data around pupillary size and predicting relapse. 

And I guess my concerns were it looked like attentional bias has been linked to nicotine relapse, but actually longer durations of the abstinence and in treatment seeking populations, they may have differing results based on the salience of the cues base and also based on how long they've been abstinent, and also, once they're relapsed and in severe addiction, that changes. 

So, I think you're going to need that complex algorithm in predicting for people, because the world is not a controlled trial like that study that you based the product on, where you're going to only get people that are two weeks abstinent, you know? 

And then also, there is still some subjectivity, because people are going to have to report how long they've been abstinent. Like, how do you get a non-subjective report of that without, like, a surveillance state going on and getting into ethics and all that? 

So, people are going to under report and deny their usage, then you're still anchored to some kind of subjective report, even if it's not craving so I think it's complicated. I think it's doable, and I also think we have to do it, and I think that's when you get big enough data and a big enough number of people using something, then you can do predictive modeling, and you could create these algorithms, but it's hard to do, and then you're risking a lot. You know, the market forces for a company to do that. Academia doesn't really have the resources to scale like that. So, I don't know, I don't have an answer for you, but I think, I think you're heading towards the right direction.

Jonah Bryan

So, I think it'd be good for me to backtrack on, one, why I reached out to you as well, and why I went involved with the virtual reality and immersive technology clinic. So let me just say, in the first year of recovery for patients with alcohol use disorder, someone who's been through inpatient rehabilitation, relapse outcomes are as high as 85%. So that means that the patient may be readmitted, they may not be readmitted at all, but they're going to relapse, and they're going to continue down the trajectory of relapsing and continuing to resort back to this behavior that got them into inpatient rehabilitation in the first place. 

So my problem statement, and what we wanted to design around was, how can we predict relapse events more objectively, because right now, what providers are using and what treatment facilities are using is this subjective patient reported outcome survey data, and they're asking patients to retrospectively identify what their cravings looked like and what they're believed to be relapse risk was based on these simple questions that providers were asking outside of the clinic, and that's what we wanted to move beyond. 

And again, the CGM parallel from blood sticks to a continuous glucose monitor, that's where we want to go, so we can objectively identify these craving states in real time. Now to do that, and why I wanted to reach out to you, Kim initially, is because the virtual reality and immersive technology clinic you all have the framework that you developed with Jeremy Bailenson and a few others of the VR one trial, the VR two trial and the VR three so when we initially spoke, it was like, Okay, we have this idea. 

We have these hypotheses. How can we actually test the feasibility, technical feasibility, the feasibility of patients wearing these glasses in real time? How do we get provider perspectives? How do we get perspectives from data scientists and machine learning experts? What are going to be the challenges in actually aggregating this unstructured data and filtering it, formatting it, and building algorithms to actually identify these craving signals in real time? So that, I think, is the inflection point that we're at now is, how do we design a trial to effectively identify these craving states in patients that are wearing the smart glasses, test the feasibility of that, and what do we compare that information to? 

And I think this goes to a broader theme, which I believe that smart glasses should be subject to the same sorts of VR one, VR two and VR three trials as other digital therapeutics and other applications that are built for virtual reality and augmented reality, I think even if it is not immersive entirely with augmented reality or virtual reality, applications that are built in the behavioral health space and in addiction medicine and medicine more broadly, with smart glasses, because they will come over time, they should be subject to the same clinical trial and regulatory scrutiny that these other applications are also subject to.

Jessica Hagen

Yeah, I think especially as they get more widely used within psychiatric care or within mental healthcare, they definitely need to be examined for validity, absolutely and efficacy.

Jonah Bryan

So, I'll start with the market forces. And it's a big bet, and venture capitalists who are taking these big bets on companies that have really long tails and that may take eight to 10 years to demonstrate the evidence that they need to have to actually scale as a company. They're not getting a return on investment as quick as they need to to return money to their limited partners. So that is a difficulty from a venture capital side that we're actively dealing with and trying to figure out, do we go the grant route? Do we go the academic path with the cuts from the NIMH? It's more challenging. So where is this funding actually going to come from is a very challenging piece. 

I think it has to be a stepwise approach, and this kind of integrates well into the behavioral health continuum. So we talked about risk, we talked about the abstinence curve. So, is it a patient population of people that have been absent for two weeks? Is it four weeks? Is it two months? Ultimately, we've done a lot of user experience and design work where we're actually talking to providers. 

We're talking to patients to see who the most likely people are to wear these glasses. And what we've learned is that the people who are coming right out of intense rehabilitation for 30 day, like, whether it's detox or like, intense treatment, are probably not going to be wearing the glasses. So that's one piece. We also have to think about liability. We have to think about risk. We have to have a provider in the loop. We're not going to give these glasses to patients and say, okay, this is all you like an Oura or a WHOOP, where they're taking the data, they're figuring out what to do with the data, and they're responsible entirely for making those decisions. 

So what we've landed on is actually working with intensive outpatient treatment programs where a patient is in a 12 week program meeting three to four times a week with other it's not exactly Alcoholics Anonymous, but it's a group of people that are working with a licensed mental health professional to talk about their cravings and their subjective relapse risk, and we would actually use the glasses as a tool that those patients can use while they're in intensive outpatient treatment programs, and provide them with information and data to come to those meetings and say, okay, this is how I'm progressing over time. 

So, we can objectively measure how that patient is progressing over time and measure outcomes in a more precise way. So, it wouldn't be entirely us as a company taking the risk, we would want to work with behavioral healthcare systems and intensive outpatient treatment programs to one validate this work, but also have a safety net and have providers there to interact with the patient and the client.

Dr. Kim Bullock

Yeah, I love that. I love that because you're enhancing the current mental health system rather than replacing it. And so, I've seen a lot of companies, in order to get the funding and be big enough to scale, they want to replace the current mental health system, and they run into trouble there, if you're trying to reinvent the whole wheel. So, I like your approach. I think you're right, and that's a great way to start.

Jessica Hagen

I totally agree with you as far as the venture capital aspect goes, because anytime you have any type of emerging technology, there is going to be a longer time where an investor is going to get a return on their investment, you know. And I think that there's a lot of VC firms that realize that. You have to have good technology and good studies to show that your technology has promise as well, which is difficult to do, like you said, Kim, right. It's difficult to perform those studies when you are in these, like, kind of emerging technology spaces. 

And medical XR is definitely one of those. I mean, there's a lot of firms that, over the years, have gotten a lot of capital investment, you know, but it's not nearly as much as some others. And I mean, it's a feat that you face Jonah to kind of build this, but I think that ultimately people will have beneficial outcomes from it, you know? I mean, as long as you do it right, like you're saying, and you're partnering with physicians that can actually guide you along the way, I think that that's promising. 

And honestly, I don't think that enough medical XR companies do that. I don't think that enough of them have physicians on their boards and physician advisors, especially psychiatrists. So that's one thing that I would say, but I do think that, yeah, it is, like I said, it's a journey, you know, to get that funding, but I don't think that it's impossible. I think there's a lot of investors out there that are really interested in this technology, as long as it's not something that seems gimmicky.

Dr. Kim Bullock

So, Jonah, anything else you'd like to say or you think is important?

Jonah Bryan

To the audience out there, technologists, neuroscientists, psychiatrists, investors, CEOs, I hope that as a collective, everyone can come together and continue to push the boundaries in this space and continue to innovate the venture landscape. It is challenging. Raising money to do these things is challenging, but there are a lot of people out there who I believe, have this mission to get as close to an objective outcomes-based approach to addiction medicine as possible. 

And I share that passion with you, and I'm very excited for how space is going to evolve over the next 10 years. And I'm so thankful to Dr. Kim Bullock and to Jessica Hagen for giving me this space to talk about the work that I have been doing and to talk about this passion and for what I want to see change in the world, and especially in behavioral health and addiction medicine. And it is an absolute honor to be a part of the Psychiatry XR podcast and to be joining as a co-host. And I'm so excited to speak with whoever comes on the podcast in the future.

Jessica Hagen

That's what I was going to ask you. What are you most excited about being co-host of the podcast?

Jonah Bryan

I am most excited about bringing in a new stakeholder, which is the venture capitalists and the people that are injecting funding into these companies that are trying to innovate in extended reality and immersive technologies, specifically in mental health, there needs to be a major acceleration of conversation on this topic. 

And how do we align the incentives of payers, providers, patients and venture capitalists, and whether it's coming up with a new business model or a new funding model, or aligning expectations of how long it might take to actually bring these new products to market, just super excited to chat with venture capitalists, early stage investors gauge interest about this space, and how do we accelerate these conversations to bring these technologies to market? 

Because I truly believe, I firmly believe, as you can all tell, that this is a space that I feel very passionate about, and I'm not going to give up on. So, if there are any venture capitalists in the audience, or anybody who has connections in venture capital, I would love to have a conversation with you through Psychiatry XR,

Jessica Hagen

Wonderful.

Dr. Kim Bullock

Yes, that sounds great. We really hit the jackpot in landing gear as a co-host. So, I think it's going to make this podcast richer and more diverse with the multiple stakeholders and networks. So yeah, we're so excited to have you.

Jessica Hagen

Yeah, I’m excited to co-host an episode with you in the future.

Dr. Kim Bullock

Yay. All right, and just a little teaser here too. We're starting a medical society that's going to have all the stakeholders involved. So, we'll keep you posted on that. We've just started a nonprofit. It's called the Society for Immersive Mental Health, so it's going to be focused on mental illness and not just wellness, but really using this in a clinical, medical way. So, we'll keep you posted on that. 

Thank you so much, Jonah, for having you for this interview and having you join our podcast team.

Jonah Bryan

Thank you so much.

Dr. Kim Bullock

And that's it for this episode of Psychiatry XR. We hope you gained a new perspective on the use of extended reality in healthcare and thank you so much for listening. 

This episode was brought to you by Psychiatry XR, the psychiatry podcast about immersive technology and mental health. And for more information about Psychiatry XR, please visit our website at psychiatryxr.com, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and tune in again next month to hear from another guest about XR use in psychiatric care, and you can join us monthly on Apple podcast, Twitter, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. 

Psychiatry XR was produced by Dr. Kim Bullock, Jessica Hagen, and Jonah Bryan, and it's distinct from my own clinical teaching and research roles at Stanford University, the information provided is not medical advice and should not be considered so or taken as replacement for medical advice. This episode was edited by David Bell and music and audio produced by Austin Hagen. See you next time you.